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Subject: My hosting experience with WH4L
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ROBAXUser is Offline
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10/04/2006 5:33 PM  

When I got into DNN I also got a new host. I needed lots of cheap MSSQL and disk space and Webhost4life looked the part.

Good bits:
Cheap - $240 or so a year for 3Gb shared MSSQL and disk space.
Loads of features for no extra cost - PHP, Sharepoint, .Net2, Smartermail, Good control panel.
Support staff do try to help when things go wrong and are often willing to install or configure stuff hands on... they're open to new things... more "yes" than "no".
Server is quite reliable.
Unlimited data per month (note below).
Good access to DB's - Enterprise manager and PHPmyadmin.
The hidden costs for adding domains and db's are still relatively cheap.


Bad bits:
Slowwwww!
Support staff are like a 10-headed beast.. with a different opinion in each head, none of which are remotely connected to one's original query.
Server script time-out periods make certain control panel functionality completely useless. In particular anything that affects a large number of files, such as a typical DNN installation. Copying, moving, deleting, setting permissions on, zipping... all of these are impossible to carry out and the host is unwilling to change this. They say use FTP (which is ridiculous) or have them do it (which works, but can take anywhere up to a day to carry out)
Did I say it was also slow?
Awestats - the stats package is crappy. My other host has Smarterstats which is an excellent package and one that I cannot switch clients away from to something like Awestats.
The unlimited data per month will be hard to ever use because the outgoing bandwidth is so slowwww!
Hidden costs: Extra domains cost $15 per year each including email service. Extra MSSQL db costs about the same (4 included)


Now... I still have an account with my other host - Appliedi.net. I've had it for years and years and it is very professionally run, but it is just not suitable for my DNN work. It's main advantage is that it has only half the number of sites on my server (about 120) versus Webhost4lilfe which has well over 250. The overall responsiveness is therefore much better and more consistent.

The downside is that it costs me $50 a month and I only have two paying sites on it, both of which would run fine on WH4L. I've not made the switch for a couple of reasons. First, the clients both would not appreciate the switch to Awestats, and second, I'm not happy with the overall performance of WH4L.

What I really want is WH4L with far fewer sites per server and workable script time-outs. I'd be happy to pay a fair bit more for the account for the extra speed. WH4L offers a VPS account shared with 10 users, but this costs $60 a month and still uses the same control panel, the same email, the same stats and the same support staff as the cheapie account.

All up, my existing accounts cost about $80 a month and I'm considering bringing them all together into one higher spec account.. but where? Staying on WH4L and migrating my other sites to it would be easiest, but I'm not convinced I'll be happy with it in the end.

So, then I went digging and saw WebsSecureStores.
Can anyone fill me in on their systems? I've looked at all the features and many things are still unclear.. how many sites per server on a 50 dollar account? What are the stats like - automatically emailable? Can the control panel make a duplicate of a DNN site folder without timing out? Does it provide full access to the MSSQL and PHP db's for backing up and restoring? Does it let one set .Net version, redirect domains at will, zip up, unzip folders reliably? Can you run 20 domains off your DNN instance and duplicate, backup, move, the site and db easily.

I'm very interested in anyone's experience with any hosts.

I've looked at Scotts other site on WH4L and it seems to run faster than my ones, though it still stutters now and then. Is this on a VPS account or a cheapie?

Ventrian itself runs well.. can you let us know Scott, which particular account you have on WebsSecureStores and how you back up or upgrade the site when you need to?

Thanks for any info on these things.
Rob

Scott McCullochUser is Offline
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10/04/2006 6:25 PM  
Thanks Rob for starting the disucssion.

I have to agree with many of your sentiments about WH4L, sometimes I think it's luck of the draw on whether or not your site performs well. Your right about the user group site, it runs pretty well, and I haven't had any complaints, WH4L is great for sites like this (mainly because of cost/features).

At one stage I did up to a "semi-dedicated" account with them and the performance was great for a while, but then slowed down very fast. It became very hard to run a business on when the reliability became an issue.

So after the issues with semi-dedicated I decided to investigate other options, I contacted WSS and was very happy with the response I received. So I setup a test site and there standard 9.95 reseller plan and the performance was great compared WH4L (and reliable!). I then setup host-tracker and another ping program (client based, can't remember name) and did a comparison between the two over 3-4 days.

Once I was happy with everything I signed up for the 9.95 plan. A little while down the track I decided to go with a dedicated plan, so I could move all of my sites to one server and consolidate my costs (being able to terminal service in is great). The performance is good on the dedicated plan, but I had a lot of success with the 9.95 plan a well.

I can't answer all of your questions about WSS, but I will forward it on to Jeff (one of the guy who owns WSS) and see if he can answer some of the questions.

Scott McCulloch
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ROBAXUser is Offline
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10/04/2006 11:07 PM  
Thanks for the comments Scott. I'll let you know what Jeff says if he gets back to me... I'm sure he'll be able to sort some of it out.

I'd love a dedicated account.. I've just realised that what I should be doing is going in with someone similar to myself to split the cost of a dedicated server.

hmm yes.. that sounds exciting already

Rob
Scott McCullochUser is Offline
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10/04/2006 11:37 PM  
Hi Rob,

That's the way I originally started, I shared some of the cost with a friend, you just need to find someone you can trust ;)

Scott McCulloch
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Jason HoningfordUser is Offline
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10/09/2006 12:25 PM  
I did exactly the same thing you did Scott -- actually tried WH4L to get your subscription. WH4L is slow, and would hang sometimes for so long my host trackers would say it was down. However, it's PERFECT for people who just want a homepage.

As for me, I do business with my websites. I moved to a ServerBeach dedicated and my sites are so much consistently faster and reliable. My trackers show 100% uptime. My WH4L account is just sitting there with nothing on it now. lol!
ROBAXUser is Offline
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10/09/2006 2:35 PM  
Yes, that hanging is the biggest problem at the moment. Every n'th click just hangs there forever.. up to minutes at a time. I do all my work live on the server and it probably adds an hour or two to my day.. grr. I keep sending them support tickets and they keep telling me that DNN takes a while to start and that I should clear the logs. After more than two years there they still treat me like a complete noob. I'm pretty fed up with it.

That Serverbeach looks interesting.. I see dedicated Windows accounts for as low as $95... but their FAQ pages are down so I can't see any more than that.. already not a good sign... oh hang on.. the FAQ answers are down the bottom of the page and it's just the bookmarks that don't work.

Can you let me know what account, control panel, port speed, other options you took? Does it have Smartermail and Smarterstats perhaps? The servers seem to be pretty bare-bone.. not even MSSQL... how do you sort all that out.. do you have to buy it and install it over the Internet?

hmm yes.. reading further down the FAQ it does look like it has to be set up from scratch... email and all. That certainly explains to low cost. Interesting all the same.
Rob
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10/12/2006 4:12 PM  
I've had a new development with WH4L in the last 48 hours.

I've been posting support tickets regarding the abysmal performance every day for no result and then a couple of days ago I sat down and did a full timed test of all sites I host there and posted that. It was not a pretty test with page loads randomly taking anywhere up to ten minutes. There was no reply again, but hen the next morning I ran the same test and all sites loaded within 10-20 seconds with subsequent clicks being almost immediate... I have never had performance like this on this host.

These are the first timings for each site:

First page - 40 seconds
Second page - 10 seconds
Third page - 3 seconds

First page - 15 seconds
Second page - 3 seconds
Third page - 40 seconds

First page - 15 seconds
Second page - 2.5 minutes
Third page - 20 seconds
Fourth page - a few seconds

Then, at this point the server was obviously starting to bog down on something:

First page - 4 minutes!
Second page - 2.45 minutes!
Third page - nearly ten minutes!
Fourth page - 1.30 minutes
Fifth page - 5 seconds
Sixth page - couple of seconds
Seventh page - taking minutes - I gave up waiting

First page - 2.5 minutes
Second page... a few seconds
Third page 15 seconds

First page - 2 minutes
Second page - 3+ minutes
Third page - taking minutes, I'm giving up.

Again the server got stuck on something

First page - 2 minute 10 second
Second page - a few seconds
Third page - 40 seconds
Fourth page - 40 seconds
Fifth page - 3 seconds

First page - 15 seconds
Second page - a few seconds
Third page - a few seconds

I repeated the tests in the afternoon and also again this morning and all sites remain very quick.. pretty much as fast as I would exect them to run anywhere.

These are today's timings for the same sites:

First page - 10 seconds
Second page - 20 seconds
Third page - fast

First page - 15 seconds
Second page - fast
Third page - fast

First page - 5 seconds
Second page - fast
Third page - fast

First page - 10 seconds
Second page - 10 seconds
Third page - fast

First page - 20 seconds
Second page - fast
Third page - fast

First page - 20 seconds
Second page - fast
Third page - fast

First page - 10 seconds
Second page - fast
Third page - fast

First page - 15 seconds
Second page - fast
Third page - fast

The only problem is that I still haven't had a peep out of WH4L about this so I can't really make a judgement on whether it's merely a fluke or something permanent. Perhaps they've just fixed up my account because of the ongoing complaints.. which is good for me, but no value to others.

I'll update this when I know more.

Rob
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10/15/2006 4:43 AM  
Man!... it's unbelievably frustrating dealing with the support at WH4L. They all want to help, but they never read the ticket thread and each one just offers the first thing that comes to mind. I'm still getting replies from completely different people telling me that asp pages need to compile when they first load.. I'm absolutely fed up with telling them over and over again that I have learned this point some years ago now and that it isn't even what the ticket is about.. and they'd know that if they had only taken a minute to glance back up the ticket... it's a total circus!

Anyhow.. I need to calm down... arghh

So, the interesting new thing just now is that, without answering my actual question for the third time in a row, yet another new support person there offered to set up a scheduled keep-alive task for $19.95 for a year for up to 5 tasks.

I was suprised to see that being offered and it's certainly handy to know. However, if performance stays at the current level of 5-15 seconds for the first page, then I'm pretty happy. The sites really are ripping along at the moment like they never have before. I just can't seem to get an answer from anyone there whether it's an actual fix or just a temporary fluke... perhaps they just don't want to commit to anything.



Scott McCullochUser is Offline
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10/15/2006 7:51 PM  
I wouldn't use an external free service such as "www.host-tracker.com", it will notify you when you site goes down too.

Scott McCulloch
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Scott McCullochUser is Offline
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10/15/2006 7:51 PM  
One more thing, I use a dedicated server from websecurestores now to run all my sites, it's bare bone with SQL, and I purchased my own backup and smartermail software to run on it.

Scott McCulloch
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DNN ProfessorUser is Offline
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10/15/2006 8:01 PM  
I have sites on WH4L and on Scott's recommendation, I have started a migration to WebSecureStores.

I am convinced that WH4L sells your email addresses.

I have so much spam daily, I hate to open Outlook.

My new accounts at WSS? I asked WSS straight up if they sell to lists. The answer was NO. Haven't had a spam yet.

Brings me to a topic. What do you do when your crucial email addresses like support@ and info@ and sales@ get the crap spanned out of them? Pretty difficult to replace them after so many users have them in address books. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Buck Anderson - DNN Professor

http://DNNprofessor.com

http://twitter.com/DNNprofessor

DotNetNuke Training - XMod Training Coach and XMod MVP


Scott McCullochUser is Offline
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10/16/2006 12:44 AM  
I don't think WH4L sells your actual address, it's probably just that the spam crawlers index your site for email addresses.

Most modern mail software should do a relatively good job of filtering out the spam email, I use SmarterMail to do this.

Scott McCulloch
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10/16/2006 1:42 AM  
Yeah it's highly unlikely they'd sell addresses on.

I find spam levels about the same across my different hosts. It depends mostly on whether the addresses are published somewhere on the web and for how long. I have domains where some of the users get tons of spam and others get zero.. all on the same server and domain. The difference is always because one of them will be using their address actively around the web on sites and mailing lists and the other does nothing at all other than personal email.

These days the people with the best spam filters seem to be the big freebie services, Hotmail, Yahoo, Gmail and so on. One could use one of those as the webmaster email address perhaps?

I was readin something today about "Google apps for your site"(search that). I gathered that the person was running his domain email through the Google email system in order to make use of their spam filters.. and it worked well. I must have another look at it.

Rob
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10/16/2006 2:01 AM  
And as for WH4L... although still only trying to help, they've been unbelievably inept at answering just one question. I asked it so many times that I finally gave up. The last reply from yet another stranger there was would I be interested in a VPS account... I nearly died.

So then I killed that ticket and started another asking straight up what WH4L considers appropriate first page launch time for a small DNN site on the Premium Plan. Then I provided a selection of choices from 5 seconds to 8 minutes. An hour later another new face replied that 15 seconds or less is good. ... I can agree with that. And now that I've got it in black and white, I'm going to hold them to it... or leave.

The performance had a hiccup today when I was testing, but then the server rebooted and since then it has been nice again. Just tested again now and things are snappy... about the same as Ventrian here right now

This seems the greatest problem.. all those other sites on the server having ups and downs and killing mine. I checked the server and it has 283 sites on it. I have about 12 of those, but they are all small brochure type sites with very low requirements.

Anyhow.. nuff ranting about them for now. At least its running well.




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10/18/2006 2:59 AM  
Well that's the end of it. I've just let fly at Webhost4life. They are without a doubt the most inane bunch of people I have ever dealt with.

My warning for anyone thinking about it: Never ever ever ever ever get an account on Webhost4life!! You will regret it. And I'm saying that well into my third year there - I've only lasted so long because I have far too much patience for idiots, but today's drama there was just the limit. What a complete bunch of monkeys! The only good thing I ever got out of it was Scott's subscription.

So, now I face having to get all my domains off there and onto something decent :(

I'll have another look through the threads here.
Rob
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11/08/2006 4:01 PM  
Just to finish this thread off properly...
I had no luck finding another host, but Webhost4life made reasonable efforts to retain my frustrated custom and so we moved my account to a different server. The new server also bogs down now and then, and in one case they kicked someone else off the server because their site had brought it to a complete standstill. The good point was that they dealt with the problem, the bad point is that that kind of thing is part and parcel of a shared environment.

In any case, the server runs fine and my sites are generally quick enough to work on without always forgetting what I was doing.

That'll just have to do for now.
Rob
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1/11/2007 5:15 AM  
Update to this thread:

I got a Webhost4life Advanced VPS account in the end. Very painful shift, but after the dramas it now runs flawlessly.. and my DNN sites now behave like proper websites... like PHP ones.

I did not want to give WH4L my ongoing business, but I really could not find an alternative with the same featureset let alone the same price... even at the cost of the top VPS account that I ended up buying.

I can provide more info on the account if anyone wants to know more.

Rob
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1/11/2007 12:11 PM  
How much is a VPS on WH4L? I have one at PowerDNN. I have three sites and a Streaming Media Server running on it.
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1/11/2007 8:22 PM  
They have three VPS accounts.. all priced with those never-expiring soon-to-expire specials.
http://www.webhost4life.com/vps.asp
http://www.webhost4life.com/comparevps.asp

I couldn't go for the smallest one for $60 a month because I wanted the full feature-set including PHP/mySQL.
The next one up is the best value at $80 a month and has all the bits installed and the option to install anything else you want.
Those two accounts are shared with 10 customers per server.

Because I was closing two accounts (one from another host) totalling about $90, I took a leap and went for the top VPS at $130, which has 2.5 times the space and bandwidth included and is only shared between 4 customers. This account also has the option of remote desktop, but that costs another $30 and cancels out the control panel... which I really like and is probably one of their best features. It comes with ten domains and additional ones are cheap as chips. http://www.webhost4life.com/advancevps.asp



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2/04/2007 6:27 AM  
I too am disappointed with WH4L. I had my personal site on WebSecureStores for a year and did not have any problems other then thinking the hosting was a bit slow when I tried to access the page for the first time. So I decided to move to WH4L which included two customer websites. Boy was that a mistake...the pages are incredibly slow and as some of you said the support seems to be somewhat undependable. I should have known it wasn't going to be pretty when they screwed up the initial admin account setup for one of my customers.

I think I'm going to bail and go back to WebSecureStores...

Visit me at www.rybak.tv
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